More on Craigslist- Did YOU Know…
Last week, I wrote an article calling Craigslist to remove their personals section. I was genuinely surprised that the response wasn’t bigger, but I did get several emails from people that noted they had no idea porn is a main staple on Craigslist’s site. Peter at OnBoardLLC came by and wrote a lengthy rebuttal to the article and asked several questions that you can read by clicking here and scrolling to his comment… my response was too long for a comment, so I thought I would revive the issue by addressing it here (see Peter’s words in bold):
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Peter, you make some great points! I can see from your website OnBoardLLC.com that you are dubbed “the industry’s foremost expert on data collection, aggregation and integration, Pete’s remarkably simple approach combined with his tenure in real estate makes him an invaluable asset.” Oh, and you have a Harvard degree.
I on the other hand am a mere University of Texas Longhorn, forging a career in real estate as the Asset Director for a local real estate company (but I’m not a Realtor). I don’t have a background in data aggregation, but I will try to respond to your argument point by point:
>Why would you presume that Craigslist is first and foremost a real estate related site (like the others you list out)?
I never made any implication that real estate is even a blip on Craig’s radar. I specifically said “It is common knowledge that Craigslist’s success began with the ‘personals’ and ‘for sale’ sections.”
>And if its not a real estate site, then how do Realtor ethics apply to the site at large (as opposed to the content of the real estate postings)?
Realtor ethics do not apply to the site, otherwise Craig would clearly have a revoked license. Realtors postingadvertisements on any site are held to ethical standards. This article was written for binary reasons, (1) to call Craigslist to remove the personals section and (2) to alert Realtors that haven’t ventured out of their tiny neck of the woods that this material is prevalent on this site.
>And I fail to see how objectionable (subjectively) content in other unrelated areas of the site are the responsibility or concern of the agent.
As you know, in the real estate world, Realtors are responsible for exposing their listings AND upholding the standards of ethics. As I said, “If you wouldn’t put ‘for sale’ flyers in a dominatrix brothel allowing children to enter, why would you be comfortable advertising homes on Craigslist where one click away are things for sale you probably didn’t know existed!?!?”
>This is FAR different from a broker opening up a community posting section of their own site and allowing this type of personals content.
I would argue that it’s not. If Prudential.com or JoeSellsYourHouse.com opens up a clone, the real estate affiliation alone holds them responsible. Our culture is litigious and ready to pounce. It would be unfair but likely that a consumer would try to sue Craigslist POSTERS (as you saw in the link in the above article) for posting issues.
>Many newspapers have semi-explicit personals sections. Here in NYC that applies to everyone other than the NY Times and WSJ I think. Yet the Real Estate classifieds sections continue to be used there.
Well, NYC is surely a different animal regarding publications AND real estate. That said, removing the personals section doesn’t mean eliminating it completely. CraigslistPersonals.com could be a separate site requiring logins and age verification- treat it as legitimate porn and watch the dollars roll in; this could be a great venture for them!
Kijiji.com also has a personals section but by disabling html and (at least here locally) disallowing pornographic material, cussing or lewd photos, they have promoted a safer environment for shoppers- no one likes the homeless guy fondling himself in the Wal-Mart entrance… the Wal-Mart products remain and the grody lewd guy is removed. We praise Kijiji for not allowing the lewd materials and ask Craigslist to do the same.
Another site is MySpace.com which we regularly see in the news as being a playground for predators of children, a site for pornography, etc. Look, as I said before, I’m a grown woman living in a liberal town- I don’t picket porn, but while Craigslist is still touted as a media darling, websites that are ALSO networking sites (of people instead of commerce) are attacked vehemently by the media, parents, and the like.
At one point here in Austin, I understand that there was a section for “escorts” (the modern term for hookers) which was removed. Pressure from somewhere surely made this move possible; why not separate this questionable material altogether?
A client may be told their Realtor is advertising on Craigslist and think “ooh, I should check it out” and click on to other portions of the site to learn about this “marketing tool” only to find out that there is abundant material offending their personal religious beliefs. They could hold their Realtor responsible.
>Deciding whether or not to post your properties there is of course every agent’s choice. I will say that in this marketplace a great number of people use Craigslist as their primary search grounds for homes. Perhaps not so much at the top end of the market, but not using Craigslist would certainly cut into a properties exposure.
I completely agree with this. In the article, I noted “that [Craigslist] is a popular search tool for many buyers and should be in Realtors’ arsenal of marketing tools.” I still think Craigslist should be used- in some regions (such as here in Austin), it is a major resource for home buyers. I will continue to use Craigslist, but I would appreciate a predatory-free environment to be promoted.
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Look, what makes me successful in what I do is that I am a consumer first, I am a parent first, I am a neighbor first… Realtors are called to act in an ethical, responsible manner in marketing. All I’m really trying to do with this article is ask Craigslist to be equally responsible with my neighbors, consumers, and especially their children as well as bring it to the attention to Realtors that MAY have the assumption that Craigslist IS all about real estate- and as you and I agree, it is not.
September 5th, 2007 at 3:25 am
Try http://www.yourlist.com. They are well behind Craigslist in terms of number of posting but have better features and do not have personal or an erotic section.
September 5th, 2007 at 4:19 am
If you think Craigslist personal are objectionable, please visit the rants and raves section when you have a free moment. This area of the site is a cesspool of hate and venom. I think professional agents and businessmen should begin to steer away from that site and post their listings elsewhere. Craigslist is filled with porn, perverts and hate. When you compromise your principles by posting there, you contribute to the problem and loose far more than you gain.
September 5th, 2007 at 4:43 am
C- my guess is that you’re the founder of yourlist(dot)com since you didn’t leave a link?
Steven- I agree that Craigslist has traffic driven by objectionable material seekers and as I’ve said, the entire personals section (including rants and raves) shouldn’t be on the same aisle as homes, cars or services for sale- we encourage Craigslist to at least separate this material if they don’t see fit to remove it.
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Thanks to you both for coming by!
September 5th, 2007 at 7:31 am
Honestly, this is all news to me, as well. Now I have to go. (Not going to Craigslist…I swear…really…what, honey?)
September 5th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Chris- we know how whipped you are… now that I know you, I KNOW you’re joking.
September 5th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Lani,
here’s my two cents…I’ve never perceived Craigslist as a “real estate” site. (Purely in my perception only) it is a huge classified ads to buy and sell most anything. I’ve only posted one listing on craigslist, and all it seemed to get was a drive-by agent looking to low-ball. The points you made about it having so much porn, etc. wasn’t news to me, but you did make a very good point in that I’m not sure I want to be associated with them…honestly I hadn’t thought about it.
The question for me to answer for myself (I suppose)is how different is it from my local newspaper. Our major paper here has a personals section, but I don’t recall seeing anything offensive. There are a couple smaller newspapers here, though, that do have some fairly suggestive stuff…no pics of course. A lot of agents advertise in these…how different is this from Craigslist? I’m not sure exactly…
If Craigslist is heavily slanted to personals and porn-personals, them I will run from them…
not sure I have a point to make here…just sort of a few thoughts that you have stirred up..
September 5th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Brian- the difference between Craigslist and a newspaper is what you pinpointed- pictures; I would add moderation. Newspapers are edited, Craigslist gives out a terms of service that people have to agree to and it’s on the trust system until someone flags it. I don’t have time (nor do I actually care) to flag a million posts per day, you know?
Like you said, it’s your discretion, but many people don’t know much about where they are exposing their clients’ homes.
September 6th, 2007 at 2:13 am
Devil’s advocate here: The great thing about Craigslist, in my opinion, is that it truly feels like one of the last truly innovative, consumer driven corners of the internet. No bling, no flash, no graphics…just fantastic, free content. Listings are free, fast, and responsive, and the owners seem jazzed about offering a product that people love to use, as opposed to rushing to cash out in an IPO.
Craigslist’s policy, in my opinion, is the right one. Users can flag illegal content and Craigslist makes an effort to remove it. But holding Craigslist responsible for someone who posts a sleezy add is sort of like holding the phone company responsible for an obscene phone call.
I’ve used Craigslist to advertise vacancies (free, can’t beat it!) I’m a huge fan. If I were selling a house with the assistance of a Realtor I’d expect them to get me as much visibility as possible, and I can’t imagine that my integrity or the perceived quality of my home would be tainted by being associated with Craigslist.
September 6th, 2007 at 3:06 am
All good points. I don’t have a problem with the concept of Craigslist (I’ve reiterated that we use it to this day), but many Realtors don’t realize how obscene the site gets.
As for Craigslist’s moderation, I find it hard to believe if a series of simple questions I’ve emailed them over the months have gone unanswered that they are capable of moderating obscene material; their current system as I understand it is that after 5 IPs flag a posting, it is automatically removed. That is an algorithm and not their direct moderation.
I just find it crazy that all of the social networking sites are under such heavy scrutiny in the courtrooms but Craigslist seems to skate by- they should take action before the litigious of the bunch take action (albeit 11 years late).
I LOVE their “keep it small” “anti-corporate” philosophy; we live that in Real Estate every day! The problem is that Craigslist doesn’t HAVE to take any action, but could simply separate this material that keeps it one degree separated from normal commerce… I mean, if you want a legitimate hooker, you can’t just make a phone call- you have to fly out to the Bunny Ranch. Keep rockin’ the Bunny Ranch, but don’t put it in my living room please and thank you.
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Chris, I always love your input, keep it comin’!
September 6th, 2007 at 4:04 am
What’s the first rule of Real Estate: location, location, location. And why is that? Because it’s not just the house; it’s the neighborhood. Those other houses next to you.
The same applies to advertising. You wouldn’t run ads in Penthouse or Swank, would you? Why. Because where your listings are seen is important. It’s your advertising location.
Craigslist has good categories like for sale and housing, but man look at your “neighbor” catogories. Personals and rants and raves. I went in there for the first time just a few weeks ago to see what it is all about. People bent over showing their ### and full views of men and women showing their genitalia. In all truthfullness, it is actually worse than swank. I was in the military years ago so that is how I know. That was then, however, and this is now. I don’t want anything to do with them.
September 6th, 2007 at 4:18 am
Thank you, Steven- you get it!
September 6th, 2007 at 5:40 am
[...] she goes a step furtherand wants Craigslist to remove their personals listing or make it somewhat hidden. She even asks why [...]
September 6th, 2007 at 6:41 am
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September 7th, 2007 at 6:39 am
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March 23rd, 2008 at 12:42 am
I think that Craigslist should clean up the section simply for the girls in said section that are legit and legal. What all of you conservative thinking individuals do not get is that the sex industry and related employment provides escapes and opporitunities for certain women and men to actually see a light at the end of their tunnel and to completely change the course of their lives. I graduated high school a year early and became pregnant at the end of my Freshman year in college by a 16 year old that had lied to me about his age. It was definitely a birth control failure. After three long years of barely surviving the economic crashes and subsequent lay-offs from Bush’s administration in 2002 and 2003, I entered the industry setting appintments for a good friend of mine. In the business, I have raised my credit score from 410 to 670, saved nearly 5,000 for my first house purchase, acquired 5 medical certifications, completed an Associates of Science as well as a BA in Science, and will be completing my Master’s in Science as well. I am no drug-addict hooker. I am a bright girl with limited resources. How to pay for school and diapers when you lived life as an orhpan and have no familial help or contribution whatsoever and lost your virginity to a minor at 18 years of age? How to let go of your dreams that you worked your whole life to obtain? I graduated High School a year early, third in my class with honors, and completed my Freshman Year of college at UT with a 4.0. My point is that this author’s opinion is so intelligent, succinct, and substanciated, that we almost fail to see how narrow-minded, judgemental, and naive it is as well. Do you honestly think that stopping Craigslist from allowing girls to advertise is going to prohibit in any way the world’s oldest and most lucrative industry? Since I have been a non-licensed massage provider, I have been forced to CL as the older, less technical methods such as newspapers and flyers no longer generated the level and standard of clients. It bodes well for those listed in this section that busines men can shop, sell, and get a great rub down in the same section. It makes it safer and cleaner than the run of the mill, free papers that are accessible to everyone in baskets at the front of HEBs, Wal-Marts, and the such. However, CL can impliment a more stringent process for moderating the ads or collect some type of ID or verification of age. Honestly, if it is legal to advertise, why not picket state officials to license all adult services establishments, ensuring that all girls are safe, legal and of age, and registered in case something bad happens. That way, girls would be forced to clean up their acts for fear of losing their individual licenses. Anyway, your infantile knowlege of the information is obvious to me, seeeing as how your are rallying the troops to shut down the personal section alltogether. The personals section is divided into subsections as is the services. The erotic section, though present under both categories, is the only section that advertises an exchange of money for time type transaction. Are you suggesting that they cut the services section completely as well? The personals has romantic dating posts, casual flings for fun, and several other avenues for repressed perverts to play for free. The erotic section, if cleaned, would end up being less controversial than some of the many perverted “free” personal ads for dating and sex. Stop wasting time with unrealistic demands from a site in which you can chose to not use. Where is the site that controls the ethics of Real Estate Agent pushing young, struggling couples into foreclosure, bankrupcy, and so on due to the demands to sell, sell, sell. Interest only loans that double in payments a mere five to ten years in advance, high interest rates, houses with huge side effects such as poor neighborhoods, painted over water and mold damages, and not really alerting new buyers of previous murders, deaths, or police investigations. Should we shut down the real estate section over that drama?