A Call for ALL to Participate in Blog Transparency
Today, Realtor Genius tweaked some code on my Word Press that shows a commenter’s IP address by their name in hopes to participate in IP Transparency in blogging. I hope that bigger blogs like Bloodhound, Sellsius, and Zillow see it fit to participate in IP Transparency- what does anyone have to lose? This is after all the era of the Revolution to be Transparent, right? So why IP Transparency?
1. Anonymous commenters are frequently doing the “rounds” so to speak on everyone’s blog to spew venemous negative PR. It’s not common but it does happen.
2. A lot of people hide behind random IP adddresses and do their dirty work of spinning articles out of control, bludgeoning any message the writers intended.
3. It curtails people like Ponch from SanDiegoHomeBlog.com or Prime Minister from this very blog from coming on and acting inappropriately and using multiple names.
4. No one’s privacy is really affected; no email address is revealed.
Yes, the admin of this and other sites can see the IP address of commenters on the back end, but the move in the industry toward transparency should extend to blogging as well. So, for your enjoyment, I (or well, my husband) present to you the simple code to reveal commenter’s IP addreses, and we ENCOURAGE EVERYONE to use this feature:
You can use the following PHP to display the comment author’s IP address:
<?php comment_author_IP(); ?>Just insert this code anywhere in the comment loop in your comments.php file.
I added this code directly after the
<?php comment_author_link() ?>and enclosed it in parenthesis like this:
(<?php comment_author_IP(); ?>)
For anonymous commenters, drop me (or anyone participating in IP Transparency) a direct note. Yesterday, an anonymous commenter emailed me directly to let me know who he/she was and before installing this IP code, and I copied and pasted it (as I would with an email) into the comments. That way, the comment still makes it to the site and that person doesn’t have to reveal their identity. If someone can’t do such a thing then they probably are on a blog to make trouble or on a smear campaign and I don’t care for them to be here anyhow!
UPDATE: For more on this topic and to read a more in-depth analysis of this idea, click here. Comments are encouraged over there as I have already established that I agree with IP Transparency but the idea is more well thought out by Realtor Genius & I encourage you all to discuss this there…
August 18th, 2007 at 12:08 am
It works the other way as well, there are spinners on both sides of all equations. So friend or foe, now the reader can see the ip address and make up their own mind as to the validity of the motive of the comment. I for one have wondered an ip of a commenter on other blogs and wished I could compare them to my own backend records because the tone and theme was eerily familiar. I really do hope that this change will be picked up, especially in forums. Zillow has a fantastic opportunity here to lead the way in reverse transparency as well as develop social mechanisms that create redundancy in verification of the comment in question- which are many.
August 18th, 2007 at 1:06 am
Why not link it through to the whois DB also?
I won’t be doing this, but I think it’s fun that you have.
August 18th, 2007 at 1:15 am
Surely this is one way to approach the subject.
i’ve often referred to my blog as the streets of Mayberry, and to a select few as the streets of 1880’s Tombstone.
Most problems with flamers are solved by calm, deliberate answers which are chock full of empirical evidence contradicting their statements. If however, they insist on being, shall we say, inappropriate? They’re then removed by my resident GG. (Genius Geek) This approach has worked well for me.
It’s long been my opinion that your strong implication that some commenters wish to remain anonymous for their own very good reasons. As long as they play nice, I don’t have a problem with their anonymity whatsoever.
I’ve had readers violently disagree with me on topics. But when they do it rationally and reasonably, it only increases the quality of the discussion. I often remind myself that blogs are dialogues not monologues.
My policy is play nice and you can be whomever you choose. Be a jerk, and I don’t care if you included your SS# - you’re gone.
August 18th, 2007 at 1:58 am
Jeff, I agree that it’s not always a problem, but if all blogs employed this IP Transparency, I know it would curtail a lot of the abuse if the negative PR campaings were linkable. It will catch on and RE.net will be better for it.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:03 am
Lani, the ratio of good guys vs bad guy commenters is probably 50:1 or so. If you start outing the 98% good guys who choose to hide their identity, they will cease commenting on your blog.
Is so-called transparency worth that cost? I think not.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:31 am
I can understand exactly what you’re saying Jeff, but for me, the reader, when I see information pop up, sometimes I wonder who that mystery person is - why suddenly in a comment wall of recognized names suddenly there are mystery guests. An ip address really does not address the total problem but it does give me as a reader an opportunity to see how common that thought really is or am I seeing a rebroadcast of the same comment with different words under an alias email address, no link back, no nothing… The comment is there forever. That’s great, but what if I am an innocent consumer in a forum getting real estate advice from a known topic buster who randomly posts in threads to kill the conversation- shouldn’t I be able to see that this thread of information is all over the forum as the same person with various names? various logins? various emails? the answer is YES. If it doesn’t really matter then why not do it. One must wonder what one is hiding- thats how this transparency crap works. If you aren’t, you must be worried. I personally do not feel that way about Greg’s thought, but I have to revisit the question, why not? What in the world do you have to lose? Will we learn that forum hosts and blog hosts lead the conversation? Maybe- so what. Whats done is done, looking forward though, maybe we’ll actually hear the real sentiment being offered up in the comments.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:04 am
BR, That’s great, but what if I am an innocent consumer in a forum getting real estate advice from a known topic buster who randomly posts in threads to kill the conversation- shouldn’t I be able to see that this thread of information is all over the forum as the same person with various names? various logins?
I was talking exclusively about blogs. My opinion of 99% of forums is unprintable. If there was ever an internet version of the blind leading the blind, it’s real estate related forums.
The point here to me, is your attempt to force the behavior you choose from the readers of your blog. That’s fine because it is your blog. If however, I wish to comment on it anonymously and you won’t allow that, the chances are I won’t comment. Your assumption that I must have something to hide smacks more than a little of blog McArthyism, don’t you think?
My reply to you is that the question isn’t should I as a commenter be anonymous. It is this: Are YOU the one who gets to choose who I am online? The resounding answer to that is no, you don’t. I choose for myself. If this means I don’t comment on your blog, that’s the way it is. I would respect your right as blog owner to set your own policies.
You don’t get to accuse future commenters though of ‘having something to hide’ in order to coerce their freedom to choose. They simply won’t accept your premise, as it’s without merit most of the time, and assumes facts that originate only in your mind. My own mom for instance is scared to death of saying who she is online. She’s 76, but pretty bright, and would definitely benefit from reading what you publish. She would lose the value of your kind and reasoned response to anything she would have written because you assumed she had something to hide.
So you see, now you’re falsely accusing blue-haired old ladies of bad intent.
I repeat, the real issue is not identities of commenters, but what they say. If you don’t like their attitude, ban them. It’s your blog to do with as you will. On my blog, I’ve banned only 2-3 commenters in over a year now.
If we let those who frequent our blogs make their own choices instead of trying to force them against their will to act how we want, they’ll keep coming AND commenting.
All said and done BR, I really do empathize with the problem you’re addressing.
Finally, when someone comes at me irrationally with obvious bad intent - a real flamer - the comment in question is deleted, and they just disappear like steam in the air. They are treated with calm and deadly dispatch. Thankfully they are very few and far between.
With all of your proven geekness, you can take care of the black hats quickly, and without fanfare. It’s the content of the comment BR - not their hidden identity.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:49 am
It worked on my blog… had to go back to pages to the last comment to check it out through.
August 18th, 2007 at 6:31 am
I can’t memorize everyones IP address well enough to be effective.
August 18th, 2007 at 7:49 am
First, I think many people missed the most important reason for IP Transparency… to be able to see these PR projects as they make their rounds. There is a RE company that I don’t have proof does this, but I suspect that they act like consumers and jump from blog to blog bullcrapping their way into harmless conversations and turn them into a Realtor bashing fest.
If someone does that here, then goes to another IP Transparent blog, they will have to think twice because I’ll see their flame here AND there under different names and will call them out.
Secondly, it is not a safeguard for ME, I can already see IP addresses on my backend- it is for blog readers to connect the dots. I don’t have it connected to WhoIs because I don’t want to PROMOTE hunting people down, I simply ask that people joing hands under our rainbow of transparency. And for the record, I sincerely doubt grandma is reading THIS blog… Jeff, you don’t NEED IP Transparency because you disarm readers and I find it hard to believe that your conversation pisses people off to the point of over flaming. This has nothing to do with privacy- no one’s privacy is exposed… you STILL don’t know WHO it is and it’s anonymous, but the same anonymous person doesn’t comment in the same post four times as different people. I doubt MY Grandma even knows what an IP address is (I barely do).
You guys are turning this into a big deal and it’s not… if you don’t like it, don’t do it! But, I am more comfortable knowing that the smear campaigns are stunted. It also gives other participants an idea of how many pepole are actually disagreeing with them as opposed to four different people harping on them (when it’s really just one).
Lastly, IP Transparency should MOST be practiced in places like Zillow. My husband and I agree that Zillow forums could be a much better tool with IP transparency. But, I think we should start here in our own blog backyards. It’s not FOR everyone, but I feel at least the big dogs should give it a shot!
August 18th, 2007 at 8:34 am
Lani - Ask yourself why is one person using four identities to flame you?
You’re either a threat, or they’re just one of those basement dwelling mama’s boys who didn’t get their cookies and milk on time. Either way, get rid of them.
It seem implausible to me the blog reading public will care a wit about the occasional jerks who stalk bloggers from time to time.
Don’t get me wrong, Lani, I feel your pain. The message might just be that the public is apathetic to your plight.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:08 am
No no no, it’s not on my page… it’s over the collective RE.net… hypothetically- one person sprinkles venom here then hops over to bhb and acts as two people then hops over to you and acts as three then hops back to mine and acts as another… that’s a 6 personality disorder for a single person. It’s not a huge deal but I think IP Transparency would curb this and other abuses.
It’s not really my page (although you KNOW I’m totally a threat)!
August 18th, 2007 at 9:16 am
I’m sorry, Lani, but I’d have to go up a couple levels to even care.
It’s just not a big deal. They’re bored, strange folks looking for attention. Either ignore them, or assassinate the IP. Or, what I often do when the comment is either so outrageous, or a link to a porn site, is to delete the comment, before it’s visible if possible.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:59 am
I often sign my name on blogs either in full “Derek Burress,” as “DB,” or at times just using either my first or last name. I doubt very many people share my last name and as for using my first name, my website is attached to most of my comments so I do not feel I am hiding behind a screen name using my initals or just part of my name.
I think with most of my comments as well, if people do not know who “DB” is or something, they can easily figure it out by the way I write. Most of the blog owners whose sites I do leave comments on I also email a few times a week as well so I think they can figure me out if I cause any problems.
As for comments in general, I am getting fustrated leaving comments. I can’t keep track of them and if I subscribe to people’s comments I get bombed by emails from commenters months afterwards that has nothing to do with what I had responded about and with some sites, I can’t unsubscribe to them. I could bookmark them using sites like c.omments.com(I think that is how it is spelled with the dot in there) but it’s too much time to go put in an site address just to keep track of all the comments which does nothing but the same as the subscribe to plugins do.
Fustrating mess.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Dereck, and that is the short answer- it isn’t for you, nor for you to manage, nor to hide, it’s for us, your readers. plain, easy, and simple.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Lani & BR -
A commenter who is intentionally malicious will go to the minor extra effort to mask their IP just like they will change their handle. And publishing IP’s encourages them to do so - which is why IP’s are typically only exposed to moderators for their research. Even then, they’re taken lightly because they’re easily changed and often aren’t associated with a single user. At Zillow, moderators have tools for investigating user behavior - if you suspect a troll, please flag them for our review. Also remember that Zillow has email based registration which adds an extra layer of friction to anonymity but I don’t recommend it for a blog.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
Greg, I don’t know that we would take it exactly that far, but maybe provide a verify ip link or something. or I could create a small text grayed colored footer in every comment with whois info, but i am not sure that wouldnt interfere with the flow of the conversation- I’ll have to give that some debate.
Jeff, just so you know, an ip doesn’t out any one, just limits the ability of a single user to spend their day as multiple people in multiple threads commenting - it simply make the above harder to do. If the comment hijacker has something to say, great, I want to hear it, even if it is slanted. but what I do not want is one opinion or suggestion appearing to be a consensus when it normally isn’t. Just because you are smart enough to know someone is a jackass doesn’t mean the passive reader does. I believe in time if moderators take these steps you will have even more contribution because your readership knows you’re there to protect their right to give an opinion and not be attacked unfairly. Notice I didnt say stop attacks, I simply said “unfairly.”
sorry no spell check, in a hurry
August 18th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Derek -
Use CoComment to track your comments - you check for updates when ypu want. There can be a bit of latency so I still subscribe to email on really hot threads but that’s not too often.
Lani & BR -
Check the IP on my comment to BR’s post on this topic - 208.48.231.12 - I use 3 IP’s (typing this on my phone.) IP Transparency would cause users like me credibility problems.
Lani -
You’re so right - there’s some cheesy comment spam out there right now.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
David, we’re asking for redundancy, if you look at Lanis and my own ip, they are the same- not a credibility issue, simply a technical issue. But what I am hoping for is not only ip display but also your social mechanisms that a company like zillow could develop. I am sure you watch for things, but why cant we provide ways that the user can gauge for themselves.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
follow-up on emails…. David, how many emails do you have? I bet it’s more than you have ip’s lol I think I have 8 emails and a server with unlimited domains and email accounts and the ability to spoof if I want- I get what you are saying, totally, this isn’t a an easy problem, but I think we’ve all agreed it is a problem and as I’ve said, a company like zillow has the brains, and the know-how to further make forums and blogs transparent and we’re asking for your help.
We’re starting with ip’s but I really liked your idea of social mechanisms - let’s start there?
August 18th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
hrm, I guess this is the point where I could come in as multiple random commenters to flame away at you big bad people for not being transparent and how we consumers hate you all for not caring about the consumer… and then begin a personal quest going around the blog world as different folks with different names spreading my hate about you and your business directly appearing to be a concensus rather than a lone gunman…
…nah, that would be to easy.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
The credibility issue is real. You and Lani appear to be the same person. Only regular readers know you well enough to be convinced you aren’t. I was heckled on curbed this week by trolls who refused to believe who I was unless I posted my phone # (obviously I ignored this) - but if I had posted from 3 IP’s they’d have convinced readers that I was a bunch of spammers. IP’s are too ambiguously attached to users to be useful.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
BR - I guess I’m not convinced this is such a big problem.
As for IP’s, (and I need to lean on your geekness here) every time my blog sees a new commenter it sends the comment to me for moderation automatically. Isn’t that because the blog hasn’t seen that particular IP before?
August 18th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
So you agree we need to add more credibility. What do you propose is done about it? The longterm success of Zillow forums will depend on how high you set the bar. Others will follow, and don’t worry, we’re directing this to Trulia as well, but we really believe you will act because you love to be first…
I looked at curbed yesterday, what conversation/thread are you refering to?
August 18th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
I didn’t design Word Press, so I do not know technically why you’re getting a copy of the IP address in your email, but it is a good guess that you as a moderator get them for exactly the reason we’re describing. The problem is, most folks pay no attention, especially in larger forums. How in the world could you watch every comment? That is why we’re asking for ways for the consumer to monitor- not just report- jerks who are throwing the conversation off course and why. Also, it allows the consumer to see if the information they’re getting is a concensus or a single person’s opinion.
You may not agree, but as a participant of blogs and forums, and as a consumer, I want to see for myself, and if I want to see the IP address this is no damn good reason I shouldn’t be able to…
Again- please read the story of John Mackey, CEO of Whole foods, and Jeff, I think it may click for you where I am going with this. This is VERY common. Consumers have access to IPs in chat; why can’t we have them in forums and blogs?
August 18th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
BR - I can see your point in the context of forums. Though I’m heavily biased against almost all forums, what you say about the participant abuse makes sense.
Unless you’re getting an unmanageable number of daily comments on your blog though, what’s the need for your remedy?
Hate mongers? Every time their IP’s are banned from your blog, they have to use another one, which is automatically sent to you for moderation, if that’s your wish. You and Lani just don’t, in my opinion, write mean-spirited posts. You guys consistently write thoughtful, playful, and educational pieces meant to enrich your audience.
Are you guys having an out of control problem?
August 19th, 2007 at 12:03 am
Ah, but I ask you…couldn’t this all lead to a lot of fun. Who were those Mexican wrestlers in Nacho Libre? We could all come on in masks to protect our identity. Seup up fake IP addresses. Hire geeks that know how to make the IP addresses traceable to Venezuala, then Saudi Arabia before bouncing back to Sweeden. Ahhh, the possibilities.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:14 am
Jeff, you’re right, our tiny little blogs aren’t the main focus. We would however like to participate in blogs & forums and know that objecting opinions are or are not a concensus. Have you seen the numbers in Zillow forum or Trulia? This will only grow larger. We either put in place redundancy now, or the spin will continue. Consumers don’t want consumer spin, they want to consume ideas, facts, and answers.
Chris, media spin is a huge business, exposing past ip address would bring them to light and help consumers to see how large this problem really is, as it is already happening on a daily basis. Providing all information possible to the consumer allows a consumer to further vet the source rather than a no link, no idea who these people are scenario which is more often the case.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:47 am
[...] can imagine a million + 1 reasons some will be stubborn about making comment ip addresses public. But a few sinister ones [...]
August 19th, 2007 at 1:00 am
BR - >We would however like to participate in blogs & forums and know that objecting opinions are or are not a concensus.
Now you’ve forced my hand. Consensus of the blind leading the blind? That’s worth the empty Starbuck’s cup I throw away - maybe. I’m setting up a fairly large site with a partner which probably won’t be up until next year. We’ve already killed the idea of a forum on the site so the ignorant participant who comes off sounding the most informed, doesn’t lead the other ignorant participants off his cliff.
Your opinion on these forums BR is most likely going to be a solid, superior take on the topic at hand. It will get lost however, in the cacophony of folks convinced they know which way is north on the map. The stuff we’ve both seen on many of these forums is sometimes so off target, you simply couldn’t make them up.
Forums by their very nature appeal to the folks who know exactly what the problem is, and how to solve it. I’m an expert at what I do, and I certainly don’t have all the answers. But I bet I could go on any real estate forum around and find a dozen folks who think they do.
The value of forums is to bring folks into a site. Past that, I’ve yet to see one that actually avoids bad info becoming almost viral. In fact, I’ll go further. Would you agree with me when I say there folks, real estate investors, (a real stretch) who’re in trouble today because they took advice from some yahoo on a forum?
I bet you do. I think they’re potentially, and in many cases actually, dangerous.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:19 am
lol you and I have a perfect consensus on what we personally think about forums. Your yahoo quote is spot on. And we’ve spoken personally on our opinions on this entire transparency web2.0 real estate stuff so you know you don’t have to close me on this one.
Our request is a humble one, hurts no one and no thing, but it puts our competition on notice that being in care of consumer information means that- great care. Will we get it? Judging by Davids lack of real ideas and proposed solutions, probably no where. Does it make me look bad for trying? No. Does the consumer see it? Only if we speak of it. Otherwise it’s just another toss to the side just like the issue of fair housing was tossed to the side the other day in a different post.
If the profession is to be shared, then I at least want to be a part of the shaping, and holding them accountable is the part I’ve chosen. Adding one more mechanism for the consumer to vet is no where harmful to our little blogs, but to a major forum I would imagine exposing this issue would be a huge public relations nightmare later on. It would stand to reason that David and Zillow making this cause a real solution is nothing but great confidence and exposure for Zillow, Trulia, Redfin, and the like. I’m counting on them to blow it off. Because it will no longer be this small exchange, it will be matter of fact and public record and consumers themselves will demand of them as they have of us.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:23 am
Fair enough -thanks.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:34 am
Greg is a genius, by running ip addys through whois db essentially the reader could see “Seattle Wa” or “Austin, TX” at least then it is just one step further in giving consumers information on who is providing the commentary and or blasting the comments in another direction.
I’m going to work on this and see what kind of server lag it draws, I can only imagine the position it would have put bhb in over the past several weeks waiting for 30 whois id’s to load.\
Maybe David could help me take this a little further or a different direction.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:47 am
BR -
I cant go into detail publicly about the tools and processes we use to moderate the site for obvious reasons. Sorry you thought I wasn’t listening - I’m happy to have that discussion offline and welcome your suggetions.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:58 am
David, that would be great, but first, you must go over to rg and take the polls and try the friday challenge- 3rd post down.
August 19th, 2007 at 4:31 am
Why don’t we all just do this… start making people register. If people want to really comment, they will sign up. It may take a handful of real estate bloggers to make the move but people will follow if a handful of us did it. I am willing to require it. Maybe if a handful of us required it we could somehow find a way to make it where if you join one real estate site you will be a member of another - perhaps a real estate blogger can do a plugin and have it updated every so often or to pull new registeration info from all the PARTICIPATING sites?
I am willing to use my site as a testing ground if anyone else is interested.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:01 am
Dereck, a public registry is an idea, the problem is, smaller blogs aren’t going to want to pay for membership to such a registry. Larger forums would want the data themelves. Ideas similiar to gravatar or bloglog with a much more robust verfication system would be costly. But I would imagine there is something like this on a the plate somewhere. We’re just going to do our part and leave ips public and monitor abuse within for now- a solution will present itself very soon.
August 19th, 2007 at 7:17 am
If you get say six of the medium sized bloggers say, Lani, April, Rhonda, Christine and a few others including myself who we can trust to share data among bloggers and disclose the fact that you can use one password and user name for all five or six sites and that we share information, I think it will work. I agree the bigger sites will want to keep the data but if it works for us smaller sites they will follow suit. As for membership, find a coder who is a blogger and willing to participate.
I am not sure about RSS Pieces but they have a new blogging platform out. I have signed up for it but yet heard anything. Maybe they can have it where everyone using that blogging platform can sign up say at a central site and the password can be usable say on all blogs that uses that blogging platform, etc.
Maybe the wordpress.com offical site allows their individual bloggers to use the same user names across other wordpress.com sites, etc? I am brain storming… shoot.
PS: What does BR stand for - already looked on your site, didn’t find anything.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:15 am
You are welcome to invest in that, but I won’t be. I think simply having the IP code will be easy enough for everyone to use and simple to promote. That quick coding step is transparent enough, in my opinion. Making a massive project out of it will likely turn people off- let’s keep it simple.
Let’s leave the registry option to the people who are VC funded like Zillow.
August 20th, 2007 at 1:22 am
[...] Lani Anglin — A Call for ALL to Participate in Blog Transparency [...]
August 20th, 2007 at 1:55 am
I am in Jeff Brown’s corner in that anonymity is not the enemy to a dialogue that will advance (or reject) an idea— I need not require the KKK spokesman remove his mask (and give me his address) in order to debate his ideas— for is it not the idea we ought to be concerned with? The real enemies are comment censorship and, worse yet, personal blacklisting, disguised as moderation under the banner of argumentum ad hominem. The censor is the mad dog that threatens us, the mad dog that must be put down.
August 20th, 2007 at 3:19 am
What about the dudes writing from their laptop broadband connection (me, most of the time) or from their company network? These people won’t have a distinct IP - It will be different each time they pop in.
August 20th, 2007 at 3:25 am
I seem to have found a partner here. Thanks JF. Do I hear any more?
Kris also makes an excellent point. Each passing year more and more folks aren’t using desktops as much as they used to.
August 20th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Kris- those aircards attatch to towers which provide ips which in the whois db give a proximity ie. the city. Which is more than consumers get now. It’s just a ghost with no link.
No more Seattle Agents giving re advice in San Diego, and if they are, then at least the consumer can see it.
Sellsius- that is a totally different blog and has not much to do with what we’re talking about. What we want is for participants of forums and MAJOR blog sites to give the reader all of the information necessary to form their opinion. Ip’s should not be hidden. I can understand email address, but not ip’s. I do agree with you on censorship issues, but that isn’t what we’re asking for. However, I could take the argument a step forward and say that blog and forum moderators are censoring information from me by shielding relivant information from me in order to allow me as a participant to formulate my own opinion with all of the facts.
Kris- I blogged more in depth on rg and your blog is a primary example.
Benn
realtorgenius.com
August 20th, 2007 at 9:45 am
Anybody that isn’t FOR blog transparency obviously has something to hide, just like your 6% commission.
August 20th, 2007 at 9:49 am
I can’t believe you guys are debating this; this is a great idea spreading quickly and old school bloggers will not conform because they feel that THEY are arbiters of what information (including IP addresses) is disseminated to readers. What a shame.
August 20th, 2007 at 9:51 am
I really think mortgage brokers should be forced to be transparent too. They should tell us what they are making… why can’t they rebate a portion of their commissions too?
August 20th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Benn
It appears the post is concerned with ip/identity disclosure as a means to foster a transparent dialogue and give the reader “all the information necessary to form (an) opinion.” That is fine. My comment did address, in part, anonymity as it affects the discussion of ideas—i.e., I don’t see the concern. But anonymity and censorship ARE related in this post, since the failure to identify your IP address necessarily leads to the exclusion of your voice/ideas from the discussion. (The post’s last sentence seems to imply this fate, as well as the ill intent of such a nonconformist.)
(The desire to remain anonymous may have to do with one’s privacy concerns — and yes, I realize the post does not directly address privacy either. My apologies, Benn, for addressing these other issues and not waiting for the sequel posts
“…to give the reader all of the information necessary to form their opinion”, my point remains—don’t censor comments or blacklist commentators — either because of one’s failure to identify their IP address or otherwise. Anonymity is a harmless guppie—- I am more concerned with the shark in the water. http://tinyurl.com/2a6zsm
BTW, Register my vote for this post, since my comment/vote is censored from the election process.
August 20th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
48 comments deep and we’ve held the course this long on topic.
I’m not a fan of banning, but I am a fan of comment removal in “out of line” situations, spam, or simple harassment. One can give their opinion rationally as you have or start their own big bad blog and be as evil as they want. That is beauty of the simplicity of a blog. Everyone can do it; anyone can do it.
I don’t mind debating an issue, I’m not afraid of a wrong answer in a forum, that is how we all learn. What I am fed up with however is debating with 2 of someones personalities at the same time. And the innocent consumer reads the debate and sides with the majority because well, it must be the majority feeling when it isn’t.
I will comment using a total of 3 ips today, home, work, sprint aircard- but my name and email will remain the same. There is a difference. The sincere commenter’s ip may vary over 3 ips, but those ips do not change on a minute by minute basis. So a single thread or debate period will normally reflect the same ip for a single user.
I am not for banning and do not believe it to be necessary. This is simply a social solution to moderation and banning. Visible ips is just another way the reader can visually form their own opinions on the validity of what they’re reading at the time when rogue gorilla commenting is taking place.
August 20th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
jf, by the way, the guy that whipped up the code for me also wrote the code that filters your ip on social networking sites.
There is no good reason to filter your ip address unless you are on a chat network where DOS attacks used to be so common. We just aren’t talking about such a subculture. We’re talking about the use of political style marketing many businesses are using in forum and blogs. It corrupts the very conversation we’re working so hard to have. Folks can stand up against this all day, but there is still no good reason to hide it. And yes, we;ve covered that privacy issue up there ^ , somewhere.
August 20th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
What about using OpenID to let people login with in order to comment?
August 20th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Drew, I think it really is coming to that as forum popularity grows. How do you see that working? It seems if gravatar went one step further in user verification the univeral system is already accepted… any thoughts?
August 20th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
>Kris- I blogged more in depth on rg and your blog is a primary example.
Huh?
By the way, nice to see that Ponch has migrated over here. I give you full custody.
August 20th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
Kris - This is what I was talking about…
http://www.realtorgenius.com/?p=121
August 21st, 2007 at 12:07 am
I think as many sites as possible should adopt OpenID — but it’s not going to happen overnight.
August 21st, 2007 at 2:30 am
Definitely an interesting idea… I’ve been looking at the IP address of trolls for years and amusingly, the majority of the trolls (in Seattle) are coming from one single IP address… the Microsoft campus! So, while a great idea, this wouldn’t do much for intimidating the Rain City Guide trolls…
August 21st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
I love this concept! I usually focus on news type of info for my business blog so I don’t feel a need for transperancy because there really isn’t any need to repond to what I write. It is a client focused blog on passing information. However, if I were to host a business related blog where I essayed or ranted regarding top issues…this would be a must!
Great tool, Lani!
August 21st, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Dereck, they’re my initials, if you know me, you know my name is Benn. If you want to contact me, there is a link on realtorgenius.com on the left under submit or add too.
August 21st, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Based on all I’ve read, I am opposed to IP transparency in blogging. It sets a bad precedent (IMO) & I can see more harm than good coming from it.
Offline, I don’t ask for an audience member to state their name or IP address when they want to comment, ask a question or call me an idiot—nor do I ask they be removed for failing to do so— why should I do it online?
I don’t fear the anonymous bubblehead, troll or whatever (derogatory) label you care to put on these people— all who have a right to speak their mind– I embrace them and offer them our blog platform anytime.
http://tinyurl.com/326yu8
August 21st, 2007 at 11:06 pm
Finally found it… you got email!
Drew: Open ID is exactly they type of thing I was thinking of.
August 22nd, 2007 at 1:24 am
jf… can you itemize some of the harm? We appreciate your humble opinion, especially if you could take your comment one step further.
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:06 am
[...] I have been exerting an abnormal amount of effort putting together an article that combines Andrew Keen’s theory, the Wikipedia Scanner news and IP Transparency. We’ve talked about IP Transparency before which ended up garnering the most comments RE Reveal…. [...]
August 23rd, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Sure B.R.
But let’s analyze the good first.
Does it solve your problem of full information to the “reader” and help the dialogue? Not really.
Since one commentor (assume a bad guy) can have several IP addresses & use different names for each, you still must debate all 3 “personalities” and not know (for sure) if it’s the same person. And since there is no banning (presumably) for this infraction alone, the words still get out for all to read.
Second, since you propose this solution for bigger blogs & forums with alot of comments (presumably), it makes it even more difficult to scroll through all the comments to compare IP addresses— and what reader will do this– most won’t. (the blog owner will, but he/she can do it anyway without having to disclose the IP addresses of the good guys.
Third, if you, as blog moderator know the commentor is using different IP addresses, just come out and say it in a comment (which will be read and save time of having readers check IPS), saving the privacy of those playing nice.
Fourth, the bad guys (the ones causing you the problems, presumably) know how to get around the IP thingee.
Now the bad.
At what cost are you keeping the few who know how to be annoying but dont know how to get around the “here’s my one identifying IP address”?
You are further eroding privacy on the net. Yes, it is about privacy—If I, as a good guy, give my honest name and IP address, I have surrendered a piece of my privacy to the reader– good and bad guys. This is an awful precedent and direction to lead people.
Just using the IP addresses in your comments, I learned a little about the internet activity of these people. I dont think this is a good thing– I think it’s bad– dont you? If other blogs pick up this idea, I will be able to learn alot more– as will the bad guys.
Also, I believe you invite the bad guys to mess with your fine tuned IP disclosure system — you just end up baiting them.
The way to fight annoying/bad speech is with good speech— plain and simple. Yeah, it can be alot of work, but that’s how you do it.
I urge you to rethink this “solution” and abandon it. Once the IP is out of the barn, it will be too late to close the door.
Do not fall under the trance of transparency.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:21 pm
JF - Magnificently stellar. I can add nothing to that elegant explanation of our shared position. It stands on its own merit. The logic of the case you make is impeccable, especially when taken in light of the privacy vs speech factor. Blogs are still about ideas, right?
Let’s allow the ideas to sink or swim on their own. Most of the bad guys have nothing to say anyway - at least nothing that stands up to empirical evidence or clear and concise logic.
Great job.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Joe, I am with you and the Bawld One on this. I concur - Well said.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:46 am
My blog shows the IP address of commenters. It has since 2005
August 27th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
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June 10th, 2008 at 10:29 am
[...] can imagine a million + 1 reasons some will be stubborn about making comment ip addresses public. But a few sinister ones [...]